for years, people have been saying get off my lawn. they finally did it. university presidents have finally said loehmann's get the most right right now if anybody in the country, they get so many rights. so many people have been saying don't tread on me for years. >> i hate you. i hate you. be quiet. i'm saying who won the week, hip-hop one the week. first of all, the great state of atlanta, we are celebrating the 30th anniversary, i feel old, of the debut album of outkast. one of the members of that incredible group was laid to rest. we want to say rico wade, rest in peace. also married a blind, tribe called quest, my favorite rap group of all time, they and more and share are being honored at the rock and roll hall of fame. they once a week. michelangelo signorile, ben collins, congratulations on grabbing "the onion." you can follow me on tiktok, instagram, follow our accounts

at the reid out. tonight on all in. >> i want to start by wishing my wife melania trump a very happy birthday. i wish i could be with her but i'm at a courthouse. >> the election conspiracy trial continues and a new witness takes the stand. >> mr. trump would like you to meet him this morning at 9:00 a.m. >> tonight, what we learn from day three of david pecker and the witnesses, including the eyes and ears of the trump organization. >> the massive paper trail. >> as the supreme court mulls absolute immunity for a clue, why donald trump's own impeachment or your new better. >> the former president subject to criminal sanction after his presidency for any illegal acts he commits. >> plus, the latest on the campus protests and the

nightmare still unfolding in gaza and why it looks like real trouble for america's favorite senator turned podcast or. >> even entity is giving hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to your reelection efforts. how can you say you're not being compensated ? >> it really is sad what has happened to the media. >> all in starts right now. good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes. over the years, donald trump has had many, many lawyers but is not what you would consider a particularly well weird fellow. he's had multiple years in a roe who have either been indicted, served prison time, or end up disbarred. that is because, as we all know, he is a serial breaker of the law. he cannot be contained by it. he has long operated in the

sketchy and seedy world of tabloid news, among other things. this is the relationship we've earned a lot about in his election interference trial this week. trump pal david pecker, former publisher of "the national enquirer", wrapped up three days of testimony against the former president. david pecker testified at length the about the now infamous catch and skill schemed by the rights to trump stories and keep them concealed from the public in the lead up to the 2016 election. now, we already knew, i think, tabloids operate largely outside the boundary of what we would call normal ethics, certainly journalistic ethics. it is checkbook journalism, as david pecker called it on the stand. the depth of what we are still pretty shocking but knowing trump's inability to keep lawyers and the company he keeps , it might not have been shocking if the parties to this particular conspiracy, especially donald trump and david pecker had claimed they want explicitly aware they were transgressing the law with their scheme. that would be a plausible story to tell about what is being alleged here. as i've said before, it is hard for them to dispute the facts as laid out in the indictment,

that trump made payments to his then lawyer michael cohen after michael cohen arranged payouts to stormy daniels, karen mcdougal, to bury their stories of infidelity with trump. those payments are substantiated. they happened. if you told me before the trial that trump and david pecker didn't really realize they were crossing a legal line and breaking campaign finance law, that would have honestly struck me as plausible. there is just one problem with that line of defense, david actual testimony. you see, on tuesday, a prosecutor asked him directly, "did you have any concerns about the legality of ami, paying to kill a story regarding a political candidate ?" david pecker answered, "yes i did." when asked why he had legal concerns, david pecker responded he had an issue when he acquired a story for arnold schwarzenegger. remember that back in 2013 ? arnold schwarzenegger was launching his political career

and was concerned about negative press and so he made an arrangement with david pecker to catch and kill those stories. some of those stories got out. on the campaign trail, david pecker says when arnold schwarzenegger was asked about them by reporters, he said ask my friend david pecker. david pecker told the court this week that was a difficult situation and it gave me sensitivity about buying any stories in the future, especially for campaigning politicians. based on his arnold schwarzenegger experience, david pecker told the court, when it came time to killing the story about donald trump in the lead up to his election, "i wanted to be comfortable. the agreement we were going to prepare for karen mcdougal meant all the agreements with respect to the campaign contribution." for legal folks, this is what we call issue spotting. he realized there might be some problem here that he was in treacherous legal territory, he wasn't flying blind. so, david pecker testified.

he consulted with an election attorney, a special attorney who does election law. and then he ran the karen mcdougal agreement by his own company's general counsel, their top lawyer. now, both of those are privileged conversations between attorney and client so david pecker didn't go into details. but, a prosecutor asked him based on that conversation, did you come to the decision you no longer wanted to be reimbursed for the money that ami had laid out to acquire karen mcdougal's lifetime rate ? david pecker responded, "yes, that is correct." "i called michael cohen, i said the agreement, the assignment deal is off. i'm not going forward. it is a bad idea. i want you to rip up the agreement. " in other words, david pecker had a brush with this in the past, campaign finance law and how it is located in a catch and kill scheme for a candidate, thought about them doing the same thing here, had a talk with his lawyer, decided

receiving the money for the express purpose of paying off trump's former lover during trump's election campaign was likely not legal, certainly to sketchy, even for "the national enquirer" . to sketchy how? prosecutor says that too. "were you aware that expenditures by the corporation made for the purpose of influencing an election and at the request of the candidate were unlawful?" david pecker replied "yes." david pecker says when he told michael cohen not to reimburse him or the inquirer for her middle story, he responded "the boss is going to be angry at you." you know the added you should never attribute a bad act and malice and you rule out competence ? when you look at donald trump and the people he surrounds himself with, there's a lot of incompetence but if david pecker, the prosecution's star witness is telling the truth, they were competent enough to know what they were

doing was illegal . and, they did it anyway. joining me now are two people inside that courtroom today, harry littman, who served as deputy assistant attorney general for the department of justice, kristi greenberg, former deputy chief of the criminal division of the u.s. attorneys office in the district of new york. there's a lot to get to because a lot of separate but i want to start on this point. of everything that is happened, i've been reading, we have this great slot channel where we have folks giving us a live transcript. that really surprised me and struck me as quite relevant to the prosecution making their case. but, is that more narrative instinct than a legal one ? >> 100% and for two reasons. first, david pecker himself is this very kind of, he is a credible nest in a way, he is a runyon-esque figure. that's part of my business model. for arnold schwarzenegger. there were 20 stars he paid off there. he still likes trump. and, it was just unabashed about it. and, so, it really kind of came home. was so significant about that

very point is what they did successfully, in a word, this week, the prosecutor laid the tracks, starting with the doorman that is now going to end at stormy and the tracks are the presidential candidacy express. that is what it is all about. we knew that david pecker had left the scene as of this time and now we understand it in a way that is completely consistent with this line of the narrative that is essential to what they are proven, which is it is all, from the start, about, yes, legally dodgy but more importantly for the actual crime, they are trying to bully his campaign, they are losing money, this would be a valuable story for them. doesn't matter, this is his job and this one and he played it in an open hand i think the jury found credible. >> what did you think ? >> it was interesting. when i talked first about the agreement with karen mcdougal and ami.

on cross, there is an attempt to say, well, lawyers negotiated this, even in the opening, this was blessed by lawyers. to give the jury the impression that lawyers said this is okay so donald trump must've thought it was okay. by the way, an objection that got sustained because you can't make that argument. he has no advice of counsel or presence of counsel. >> ruled out in pretrial motions. >>. now you have this agreement. the agreement, the word campaign doesn't show up once, right ? this agreement with karen mcdougal is for promotional opportunities, for her to be on the cover of the magazine, for her to go straight articles. and, he never on redirect, it was so effective from the state because they are like campaign doesn't come up anywhere. when you talked to your attorney, ami general counsel, you never mentioned michael cohen, you never mentioned the campaign, you never mentioned you were trying to help once the election. there's not but, this looks like a standard agreement for a lot of money, for 150,000, which is way more than anybody

else would have been paid, way more than they would have paid for karen mcdougal. >> paid so much, i thought this was a moment, rachel mentioned this last night, a moment of jesus, paid so much, karen mcdougal thought they wanted her to do this. >> she is a poignant figure here. >> so much money and she's like knocking on the door and calling it coming to new york like are you guys going to use me? that we the deal, i want to do red carpet stuff, you are paying me a lot of money. short of it not clicking that this is fully for this other purpose. >> survey, go ahead, please. there is the paper and there's the reality. the paper is a total lie. as kristi is saying, in fact, trumps a lawyer stepped in it because he tried to show on cross, look, this doesn't say anything about what you are and then on redirect, yes, there is a reason for that. >> david pecker says, yes, this

agreement was a disguise. this wasn't really what it was about people thing was about making sure she didn't share the relationship . then, the other place where they stepped in on it on the defense is they show david pecker the nonprosecution agreement with the southern district of new york, where there is a statement of admitted fact that is attached to that agreement. that is what it is called and he saying there's no violation here. you didn't violate campaign- finance laws at all but all of the conduct that would violate the campaign-finance is attached to that statement of admitted facts. where he says the primary purpose of this whole agreement with karen mcdougal was to make sure that she didn't influence the election. >> which is to say already in 2018 talking to the feds, talking to the fbi, he is admitting that the campaign was the purpose of this. >> yes. >> from the time he found them, he played it like an open book. trumps lawyer made a mistake trying to say, look at this

document. the biggest aha moment, if you are looking for that in a trial, was when on redirect, the da said it says it right here, doesn't it, highlighted on the whole thing. he, at that point, looked like he was trying to put one over on the jury. >> that is the worst thing that you can do. you can't lose credibility with the jury. there were multiple times were he did that. at one point, he has this attempt at a gotcha moment where he shows david pecker -- >> trumps lawyer. >> trumps lawyer shows david pecker a 302, which is an fbi notes from interviews and some and says look, you testified on direct that trump thank you for these, for taking care of the torment and taking care of karen but in this 302, it says you didn't do that. and he points to this one line. then on redirect, the state prosecutor comes up and said there is a second one of those and you said it right here. oh, here's grand jury testimony where you set it again. you were telling the truth then, you told the truth today.

you didn't take those notes. maybe the fbi agent got it wrong. they are not direct transcripts, this is somebody taking notes you missed something. he has been consistent otherwise. it was just this backfire like you can't point to one length of one report and then have all of this other all these other reports and testimony and mention them. at that point, you have to figure the jury thinks you are misleading them. >> we will see, we have two more, quickly, we have two more witnesses today. one was michael cohen's lawyer, basically, banker, basically saying he came to me to take out of this line of credit. again, michael cohen doesn't have the cash flowing around to make these payments. >> line we will hearing closing. david pecker says michael cohen couldn't take me out to lunch without donald trump's approval. they will try to say this is a line of credit. >> trumps assistant, who was there just to show these folks showed up in trumps rolodex, right? >> and the way they showed up. audible laughter in the overflow courtroom when the

stormy exhibit came up. the argument the defense was trying to make was she was somebody trump was considering for "the apprentice." in that case, you would expect that it would say stephanie clifford, there would be an agent, a lawyer, there would be contact information. instead you have , no last name, with a cell phone number. just audible laughter once we get that. >> ariel min and kristy greenberg, thank you both, that was fantastic. trumps new york election interference trial kicks into high gear. the latest witnesses for the prosecution and what they know about the ex-president, that's ahead. ahead. everybody should have it. it worked great for us. this is as good as gold in any garden. if people only knew that it really is about the dirt. you're a dirt nerd. huge dirt nerd. i'm proud of it!

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we are getting our first look at donald trump's defense in his new york trial as his lawyers cross-examined prosecution witnesses, including former ami ceo david pecker, former trump executive assistant rhona graff. the judge is still waiting trumps apparent violations of his gag order, including a new set of violations that have been flagged by the manhattan district attorney's office. philip hamilton is a defense attorney, has litigated cases before judge juan merchan, they both join me now. it is great to have you here. let me start with you as a

practicing defense attorney and to practice before judge juan merchan, you practiced in new york state. bradley, you are not in the courtroom but you been reading the transcripts and the coverage, how you think the defense is doing this week. >> the defense is working with what they can, chris. in that respect, i'm going to give them some credit because they don't have a lot to work with. >> you don't think so ? >> with respect to david pecker, what they have done, but this comes out in class today, the phrase "standard operating procedure." with respect to how "the national enquirer" works, picking town that has many payments are just for trump, these go across the board . with respect to celebrities of all kinds. breaking down the business model of "the national enquirer", in the sense that sometimes they will buy the stories to leverage celebrities and keep it quiet, other times they will buy it for their own profits. what ever it may be. >> what is that useful for the difference ? >> it is helpful in the sense we are looking at this only for the purposes of election

interference, it is giving them something to say that is not the only reason why this happens. this is been happening since 1998 with trump. >> there are a bunch of reasons it is different. the amounts of money involved, the structuring of the payment. and in david testimony saying it was for the election. >> they have to work with what they have to work with pete >> from the defense perspective, establish and there is some doubt when this is an mo they had. >> absolutely, just for the purposes of we are talking about proving this case. a reasonable doubt. can be shown that ultimately,, i just need to keep the story on the loan for the same reasons i had to back in 1998, if you are donald trump and the fact that the election is coming means probably more people are going to be coming out and so we need to have these meetings in august of 2015 to discuss the anticipation of who's coming, what we need to be looking for,

and take this down in a way that we've been doing since 98 but is probably going to get up. >> i found the arnold schwarzenegger back story interesting in that respect. it's not my first rodeo but that is why i was concerned legally, which i thought was a bad moment for the defense. i will say, i did feel a little naove because the arnold schwarzenegger thing, that we have this arrangement of catch and kill, i'm a little scandalized. of course, of course that is exactly what happened. i want to ask you, judge, about just the progress for the first week. how you think, just for the kind of, the cadence here and how this case is progressing and how the judge has handled that courtroom, what you think of it. >> they are already on the third witness. they have only worked four days. they haven't worked four full days. this is moving along very, very well. i don't get any sense the judge is putting his foot down and truncating any of the cross examination or redirect. i think he's keeping control of the courtroom, he's moving things along and, you know, i would give him a. >> you've tried cases in front

of judge juan merchan, what is your sentiment ? >> he's a very calm, he's very astute on the law. but, he keeps control in a way that i think we've seen. there have been some talk but what are we going to do with the gag order, what are we going to do with the comments trump has made outside of the courtroom? frankly, he controls his courtroom well and i'm seeing that play out here. that is why i think we are moving along expeditiously. >> i should note one of the things that emil bove, one of trumps lawyers, try to do with david pecker was pushing on his memory, which is a standard form of cross. i have to say, i remember having this thought when i was watching the gwyneth paltrow civil case about the ski incident like does anyone really remember at this point who knocked and who? the memory thing seems fine and at some point etc. you are really good about conversations you had, it's hard to remember what that almost 10 years ago. david pecker, "yes." there are some instances where

your and fills in gaps, right? "to the best of my knowledge." in this case you have notes because he did fbi intake and there's corroborating documents, which seems to have the prosecution. >> i think you still, nevertheless, as the defense, if that is what we are talking about, them operating this week, you have to attack all angles. if there are any areas with which you can attack his credibility, his opportunity to observe or remember, you have to take those angles. >> let me ask you this judge. we have the motion to show cause on the 10 instances of violations of the gag order, the district attorney has noticed the judge that there are five more instances, they say. the judge originally set the hearing for wednesday, now it is thursday. there's some question about why. why wait until thursday? and, what you think the thinking is here about using the correct incentives to get him to stop doing this. >> there's a real danger here. we've got three days with no trial, which gives mr. trump a lot of opportunity if he

chooses to make some inappropriate statements. i have noticed something. as i'm sure you have, he's not saying much when he comes out of the courtroom now as he was before. he's talking about will bite and beat me, this is terrible, it's too cold in here. >> wishes his wife a happy birthday. >> which could be with you. >> is it her birthday today? >> i think it is. that would be very funny. >> but, so, he may have gotten a little bit of the message. be that as it may, it is still an unresolved issue. so judge juan merchan can be, his thinking may be i that these things wrack up and i will have a hearing and i will fine him however many tens of thousands of dollars it ends up being. i could consider putting him in

jail. if he did, i think it would wait until after the proceedings are over because it is want anything to slow this down. let's look at it this way. if judge juan merchan were to make a ruling now and find mr. trump and then mr. trump keeps at it anyway. >> you run out of room. >> exactly. he may not, he may not want to paint himself and that. >> judge kiesel, philip hamilton, thank you both. still ahead, the conservative members of the "bend over backwards to help trump one more time. what interstate didn't mean for the rule of law. that's next. at's next. i got rapid relief... and reduced fatigue with rinvoq. check. when flares kept trying to slow me down... i got lasting steroid—free remission... with rinvoq. check. and when my doctor saw damage,... rinvoq helped visibly reduce damage of the intestinal lining. check.

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as donald trump sat in a new york courtroom in his 2016 election interference trail, one of his other legal teams was in washington, d.c., arguing before the supreme court he should have immunity from his 2020 election interference case. now as we said last night on our special program last night, the arguments were frankly shocking. any legal observers, people i know personally who have no illusions about the square, genuinely taken aback by the fact that conservative justices seem to be almost openly colluding with donald trump, reconceptualizing the president in real time as a sort of lawless dictator and just going all the constitutional, textual, historical evidence that points in the other direction. to my mind, one of the most

galling things, and it didn't get mentioned during oral arguments but it is worth mentioning here is that during donald trump's own impeachment trial for this very matter, his attempts to overturn the election, his own lawyer for the nation and before the senate argued the literal opposite of what his lawyer is now arguing to the supreme court. >> the senator from texas ? does a very, very important point, there is no such thing as a january exception to treatment. there is only the text of the constitution, which makes very clear that a former president is subject to criminal sanction after his presidency for any illegal acts he comments. >> you did not hallucinate that. that was donald trump's lawyer in the senate saying the following. "the text of the constitution is very clear that a former

president is subject to criminal sanction after his presidency for any legal, illegal acts he commits." that was the argument trumps lawyers used in 2020 want to help avoid conviction in the senate. don't worry, you can vote to acquit him and we all still know because it is obvious that he could face criminal sanctions. now, his lawyers across the street in the supreme court three years later are making literally the opposite argument to a receptive supreme court. as was put in "the new york times" , trump has asked the supreme court if he is 18 and for some of them, so-called originalists, have told him they will have to think about it. i love to work on today. i thought it was fantastic work. one of the things i like about it was all of the historic evidence you entered, which was

bizarrely absent from all of the originalists. you have trump's lawyer clinging like a life raft 21 ben franklin quote, which he keeps throwing out there every time, when there is an enormous corpus of writing from folks who were actually at the constitutional convention, who were at the state convention saying obviously the president is not immune. >> all right. i pulled that from the great historians brief, a collection of excellent historians put together a brief for the brennan center laying out here is all the evidence against the claim that the president is criminally immune. to be honest with you, even doing that feels like a silly exercise, to some extent. to me at least, it is self- evident that the president is criminally liable for legal act. if a president, a president who

has criminal immunity, the president is a civil officer under the constitution. if that person's criminal immunity, they are no longer a president, by definition. they are aching, they are some of the thing that stands above the entire system but they are not a president. it is system breaking to suppose the president is above the law in any sense. so, you commercial all of the historical evidence. it is worth doing, it is worth showing in detail that the people who constructed this thing thought a lot about the specific question and gave us pretty straightforward answers that don't really require integration. i think it's worth saying that listen, by definition, the resident has to be legally accountable. >> this is a go with your gut situation. what is your intuition about this is correct as an american, as though we throw off the

tyranny of the monarch. no one is above the law. that is correct and that is what the lower courts found. the other way i agree with you that it feels like shadowboxing is, this i think was what was so appalling about the ordinance yesterday is they don't, it feels like the fix is in, that it is cooked. they don't, they are not really listening or reasoning legally. what they are doing is trying to find an outlet for him. >> right. right. i think the big toe, the giveaway, they refuse to deal with the facts in question. they refuse to deal with the actual situation that we are facing. they are spinning these hypotheticals. what if president, you know, is afraid of being executed and then they are going to stay in office. it's like what if? what actually happened is that the president that was defeated in an election and refused to leave and someone in mop to overturn the process by which he is supposed to leave.

that wasn't because he was afraid of prosecution. donald trump had went gently off into the night after losing, he could still run again. no one would care. there wouldn't be a prosecution. this is happening because he tried to overturn the process. so, this isn't some sort of vengeful biting, some vengeful justice department to going after trump because he signed bills they didn't like. he did something genuinely transgressive and system threatening. the fact that the court just decided this didn't matter. we are going to talk about abstractions and hypotheticals like this is a law school class is, i think you are right, it is the tell. it is telling us that the fix is in. that, the, they are trying to find a way to not have to come down hard on trump. >> it also felt a little bit like i was in a postmodern undergrad classroom where like they are sort of like what

president doesn't break the law, they are all crooks, really. is that the position that we have at the supreme court, are they all crooks? i don't know. that is not what i thought you would think. the last thing here just briefly is i think you and i share part of what was upsetting to make is that this isn't over yet and i'm worried about this court, deathly worried about what they have set up for us in the future. >> at the very least, they have delayed the trial. the trial will be delayed. the public will not be able to get a sense, if a jury of citizens decides that trump is guilty here, which i think is important information for the public to know. trump could win in november and it is setting up a constitutional crisis. it is setting up a situation in which trump tries to kill the investigation. that, then we are entering a whole new, a whole new chapter of american history in a bad way. >> as always, jamelle bouie,

thank you, sir. still ahead, it turns out ted cruz favorite part about being a senator might not be on the up and up. the problem with ted's burgeoning podcast empire, next. ire, next. so i started my own studio. getting a brick and mortar in new york is not easy. chase ink has supported us from studio one to studio three. when you start small, you need some big help. and chase ink was that for me. earn up to 5% cash back on business essentials with the chase ink business cash card from chase for business. make more of what's yours.

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senate. he has turned his powerful elected position and essentially a part-time job where he focuses his efforts on more satisfying work. of course, i'm talking about his podcast "the big comfy chair with ted cruz." the senator records at three episodes a week, which is not nothing. sounds like a lot from a senator from the second most populous state in the country in the middle of a tight race for reelection. beyond the weirdness of devoting so much of his time to his site hostile, ted cruz podcasting habit raises serious ethical and legal questions. who is producing the program and what is happening to the money it generates? we have fascinating new answers. back in 2022, ted cruz partnered with the number one syndicator of u.s. radio programming, iheartradio. iheartradio would bankroll the whole operation, although ted cruz aides and iheartradio executives didn't provide details of the deal, including how much ted cruz will be paid for the rights to the podcast. that was a murky but important

issue, considering the senate strict rules on outside employment. you can't just like have another job. there are whole pages about this in the senate code of conduct. added to that ? as we recently learned, you pay ted cruz is superpac. at the dallas morning music plan, since march of 2023, the pro-ted cruz truth and courage superpac has received increasingly large payments that total more than $630,000.00. that is about a third of the total money the superpac reports raising since the beginning of 2023. a spokesperson from a transit five subsidiaries at a statement ted cruz "volunteers attempt to host the podcast and it's and compensated for it." she further explained that they sell advertising time for the podcast and the money directed to the truth and courage superpac is, "associated with the advertising sales." a local news out let confronted ted cruz, the senator got very

defensive. >> even entity, which employs lobbyists, is given hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to your reelection efforts, how can you say you are not being compensated ? >> it really is sad what is happened to the media, which is the medium exists right now seemingly to. left-wing democrat tax. the group that brought that attack is a left-wing democrat attack group. >> x since he's touchy because the arrangement may well violate election laws. campaign finance lawyer explained, independent superpac organizations are barred from coordinating from candidates and campaigns they support. candidates are limited in how much money they can assist from super pacs and prohibited from soliciting corporate donations to them. it is hard to see how ted cruz thrice weekly podcast and introduced my is super pac, which takes in hundreds of thousands of dollars from it, does not constitute coordination or soliciting donations. it has everyone asking, why is this happening ? i'm sorry, that is my podcast. "why is

this happening?" which you can download with the qr code there or wherever you get your podcasts. the ted cruz deal, that deal may also be in violation of the ethics in government act. the campaign legal center filed a complaint with the senate ethics committee asking to investigate whether ted cruz is disguising speaking fees as payments to a super pac in violation of the law and senate rules. so, not only is ted cruz podcasting habit wizard, i think a little insulting to the 30 million texans he represents, presumably full- time, it also appears to be a serious ethical and campaign- finance scandal in the making. . ♪(voya)♪ there are some things that work better together. like your workplace benefits and retirement savings. voya provides tools that help you make the right investment and benefit choices. so you can reach today's financial goals

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hundreds of people have been arrested on college campuses this week as protests in the wake of the israeli military assault on gaza continue to spread across the country. at the university of texas 500 students walked out of class to

demand the university divest from manufacturers supplying weapons to israel. at emory university, 28 people were arrested by georgia state troopers with officers using pepper balls and chemical irritants. a few professors were arrested as well. at ohio state university, three dozen people were arrested after protesters called for the university to divest from israel and set up an encampment on campus. what is happening on campuses across the country was sparked largely by what is happening in gaza, but what has been happening at columbia university. the university president called in nypd, an incredibly rare step, to break up an encampment of pro-palestinian protesters last week. 100 students were arrested, causing outrage. that encampment is now back, as

you can see, and as big as ever. counter protesters are outside the university gates and everyone from president biden and donald trump and the speaker of the house has weighed in. the dean of the columbia journalism school is currently on the negotiating team seeking to resolve issues arising from the protest at the university and he joins me now. great to have you. i understand that specifics are happening and you can't speak to those, but i have been thinking about you the last few days, about what it is like on the campus and your read of the situation that your institution finds itself in. >> well, thank you, chris. the situation fluctuates from minute to minute. sometimes it is a relatively quiet environment, or as quiet as you would get with an encampment of that size happening. then periodically there will be surges and sometimes counter protesters.

sometimes counter protesters outside the gates of the institution. one thing that i want to clarify is that a lot of the worst behavior people have seen that has been, admittedly, alarming, has come from people outside the campus gates. the reason why think it is important as they are not affiliated with columbia university. these are just kind of random people showing up for various purposes. inside is a different situation. so that is where we are. at some points there are protests. sometimes on the broadway side and the ongoing encampment that is in the center of the main square, on the west lawn, in front of the butler library. >> there are sort of two issues

i want to talk about. you referenced this before. some viral videos, i saw one that was verified of people chanting, a crowd of 15 people chanting explicitly pro-hamas chance that was very clear at 115th and broadway. on a new york city sidewalk, not in the campus. just to the point that those are public streets, where to your point, some things have happened that is just public new york city sidewalks. they are not regulated by the university. >> absolutely. as i said, one of the things that happened, protests are a beacon for every character who can pronounce the word gaza to show up outside of campus. some people feel strongly about this issue, but there are other

things. i talked to my faculty and students and other things people have been out there chanting that are alarming and frightening. so i would not diminish that. >> i think that is where the rubber hits the road, because i have heard people who feel, who have crossed protests like that while coming home from sabbath services. at the same time i think a lot of students who are protesting feel that they have been smeared. feel that they have been unfairly smeared. that they had a principled stand of view that is not fringe or crazy, that what is happening is morally indefensible and it has become a kind of convenient target for all kinds of folks, nationally and even for the university president.

>> sure and when i have talked with protesters, i will be very clear that i am not taking a stance on this. just in the conversations i have had i have talked with people who are protesters who stringently reject this idea who have articulated the idea that they think there is a shared destiny between israelis and palestinians and they really have little to no tolerance for the kinds of discriminatory things they have heard and have been attributed to them. so that is kind of the cross- section. it is not shocking that we are having a conversation about the middle east. there will be contention and people see the same things very differently and as a matter of fact it does not characterize the circumstance since october 7 on this campus and others

around the country. >> is someone who is a dean of a journalism school, do you have concerns about the speech atmosphere on campus? >> the thing is, we have been consistent at the journalism school from the outset that we stand for a free press and we stand in defense of free speech. so that has not really been a question and i guess the kind of active version of that, the way we have lived out our principles has been that our students have been out there every single day, with their microphones, with their cameras, with their notepads, recording, doing stories. doing documentary work. and just if i can take a minute to talk about this personally, i have never been more proud of any group of students than i have been about my students who have covered this story and

contributed to news outlets across the country and in fact are fact checking. so many of the things, erroneous ideas that are floating around, they have created a twitter account to fact check what is going on on campus and what is not going on on campus. >> i have relied heavily on great journalism being done by folks from columbia. negotiations continue. we will see what comes from it. we are seeing scenes across the country. jelani cobb, thank you very much. appreciate it. >> thank you. >> that is "all in" for this week. "alex wagner tonight" starts now. good evening, alex. >> has it really only been one week? it feels like maybe two weeks, this week. >> this week? i don't know where i am or what day it is. >> it is the fourth or fifth of december. >> opening arguments this week. i was like, this week.

>>